Ross Rosenberg, a psychotherapist and codependency and narcissism relationship expert, explains what these dynamics look like in a relationship. These relationship dynamics can be extremely painful.
However, Ross gives advice on how you can get out and recover from a relationship ruled by codependency and narcissism.
In this interview, Kamala opens up about the pains she once experienced dating a narcissistic partner. Ross Rosenberg helps to clarify what makes a narcissism and codependency glue together and how to recover from these agonizing patterns.
Codependency and narcissism can be a sneaky and all-too-common relationship dynamic. A codependent person and a narcissistic person are magnetically drawn to each other.
Table of Contents
Key Takeaways: Codependency and Narcissism Relationships – Ross Rosenberg Interview
- A codependent person feels powerless in relationships, are attracted to narcissists. They habitually fall in love with the same type of person despite their promises to themselves.
- Narcissists are people that need to focus on themselves. They need to be right. They need to have people talk about and compliment them. They tend to be entitled. They tend to brag, and they don’t like to be criticized.
- Codependency and narcissism are common yet damage relationship dynamics.
- The human magnet syndrome draws these opposite people, the codependent and narcissist, together in a perfect dysfunctional balance of a relationship.
- Codependency and narcissism are attracted to each other because they were raised in a certain way that created psychological harm.
- The origins of codependency and narcissism come from being raised by a narcissistic parent.
- The way the child adapts to the codependency and narcissism family dynamics determines what their relationship template is as an adult.
- Healing codependent traits is about self-love, raising low self-esteem, and strengthening the sense of self. You have to heal those wounds inside of you that cause you to feel not worthy of being loved, respected, and cared for.
- It’s important to understand the difference between codependency vs narcissism. If two codependent people meet, there’s no chemistry. They both like to help and listen. Or if two narcissists meet, they tend to not like each other because they keep interrupting each other.
- Healthy partnerships are mutual and reciprocal, even with the relationship problems you experience. Relationships with codependency and narcissism take time and work to heal.
Transcript: Codependency and Narcissism Relationships – Ross Rosenberg Interview
Luis Congdon On today’s podcast, we’re going to be talking about codependency and narcissism. Have you ever been in an unhealthy relationship? Then I’m sure you’ve probably thought maybe you’re in a relationship that has codependency and narcissism.
I’ve brought on Ross Rosenberg, a specialist on codependency and narcissism. Ross Rosenberg is the creator of The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why We Love People Who Hurt Us. It’s fantastic to have you here. Welcome to the show Ross.
Ross Rosenberg Thank you. I’m so glad to be on it.
Luis CongdonI want to get started by asking you about your book, The Human Magnet Syndrome. Why should someone read it?
Ross Rosenberg The book, its full title is The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why We Love People Who Hurt Us. People need to know why they feel stuck and perpetually powerless in relationships with covert narcissists. I believe that there are a lot of books in the market that will tell you what to do.
However, in order to solve the problem first, you need to actually understand the problem. In my book, I explained why so many codependent people who feel powerless in relationships are attracted to covert narcissists.
And why do they always habitually, if not reflexively, fall in love with the same type of person? May be over and over again, despite their promises to themselves.
So my book will give you hope. It will finally give you an explanation that will make sense to you. It will empower you to look forward and to make the changes.
The Difference Between Codependency And Narcissism
Luis Congdon One of the things your work really brought to mind is a question for me and a lot of the listeners what exactly are codependency and narcissism? I went out and asked the question. I posted on different social media sites. A number of people thought that maybe they used to be narcissistic or that they were.
I think that there’s a misunderstanding of what narcissism is and what’s typically codependent behavior. Could you clarify that for us a little bit more?
Ross Rosenberg Sure. In fact, one of the reasons I’ve written my book is there’s some misunderstanding of what both codependency and narcissism are.
Let me explain first that narcissism can be understood on a continuum that there are healthy narcissistic traits. So narcissists are people that need to focus on themselves. They need to be right.
They need to have people talk about them, any compliments. They tend to be entitled. They tend to brag, and they don’t like to be criticized.
The ones that are pathological have little empathy and very limited abilities to connect in a relationship that has mutuality or reciprocity. The controller narcissists are what I call the Pathological narcissists.
They involve themselves in a strictly one-sided relationship where everything needs to be geared for themselves. Those are pathological narcissists. There are different degrees of narcissism.
I have a theory in my book called The Continuum of Self. It actually explains exactly what narcissism and codependency are, and they’re set on a continuum. The codependent partner is someone who makes everyone else more important than themselves.
They’re powerless to get their needs, but they give in to other people’s needs. They perpetually want validation by trying to love someone or give to them. They have no power in the relationship.
Codependency And Narcissism Are Usually Misunderstood
Ross Rosenberg If we look at these two, the codependent partner is someone who habitually is in relationships with narcissists. Because they are the weaker, the more submissive, and acquiescent.
However, narcissists are habitually in relationships with codependent people because they are the controlling person. The needy person is the one who needs all of the power and control.
The human magnet syndrome withdraws these two opposite people together, almost in a perfect dysfunctional balance of a relationship. Like two dance couples, the leader and the follower.
Kamala Chambers Why do you think these two are attracted to each other so much? It’s almost like they create balanced partners when they are together in a very unbalanced way.
Ross Rosenberg They are attracted to each other because they were raised in a certain way that created psychological harm.
I had this on my YouTube channel, and I do recommend that your listeners go to it. You can just go on YouTube and just type in my name Ross Rosenberg.
I explained that the origins of codependency and narcissism come from being raised by a narcissistic parent. Narcissistic parents need their children to make them feel good about themselves.
That’s a narcissism. The way a child adapts to a narcissistic parent is going to determine what their relationship template is going to be as an adult.
Ross Rosenberg For example if a child finds that they can make the narcissistic parent happy by being the trophy child. The pretty child, the handsome child, the child that’s agreeable, and the child that can always make their parent happy.
They learn early on that to be loved, you have to make someone happy. That’s a relationship template that’s going to manifest into codependent relationships.
Ross Rosenberg For example if a child finds that they can make the narcissistic parent happy by being the trophy child. The pretty child, the handsome child, the child that’s agreeable, and the child that can always make their parent happy.
They learn early on that to be loved, you have to make someone happy. That’s a relationship template that’s going to manifest into codependent individuals.
Origins of Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg However, on the other side, if a child can’t make the narcissist happy. And he can’t figure out a way to make the narcissists feel good about the relationship.
This child is going to grow up unattended, unloved, and in some cases, neglected and abused. And then, they developed a relationship template where the world is unsafe.
They realize the only person who’s going to love you is yourself, and that later will manifest into pathological narcissism. Codependency and narcissism come from being raised by a narcissistic personality disorder.
Luis Congdon As you’re talking, I’m thinking of a majority of relationships that I see. I’m kind of sad to say that out loud, but a lot of couples I see are sacrificing and consumed by these dynamics that you’re talking about.
As I was reading your book, I started to feel like, “Woah! Am I even displaying some of these behaviors?” And it’s very easy to feel like maybe you have this.
Pathological narcissism is never considered a healthy thing. You said that there is a spectrum, but I never really thought about it as a spectrum. I’ve always thought, basically, if you’re a narcissist, you’re selfish, self-centered, over inflated self importance, and self-absorbed.
Narcissistic personality disorder
Narcissists tend to have a lack of empathy, put their own needs first and put others last, or have a fractured sense of self worth. These are just some of the common traits and many psychological traits many narcissists tend to have.
You’re not nice, you’re obsessed with yourself, and you don’t really care about other people. If you’re codependent person, you’re unhealthy, and you’re powerless. This inherently dysfunctional codependency dance requires a certain amount of dysfunction prior to the relationship.
Ross Rosenberg Right, but I created the continuum of self-theory. In order to help people understand that there is a range of potential.
The most severed codependent person is all the way on the end of one side of the continuum. The most severed narcissistic traits are all the way on one end of the continuum. One’s all about their own needs, and one’s all about self.
However, you could also be healthier. You can be moderately consumed with your own needs. Or you could be moderately consumed with other people’s needs.
Understanding Codependency And Narcissism And The Theory of Human Magnet Syndrome
Ross Rosenberg The Theory of the Human Magnet Syndrome is that you match up with someone who fits you perfectly in an opposite way. Not everyone is pathologically narcissistic, and not everyone is pathologically a codependent person.
We all fit on this continuum. As important as is it to understand this as a way to point out someone’s problems, it also points to their strengths.
Let’s say you’re a codependent person, and you’re perfectly matched with a narcissist. As you get healthier, then the balance doesn’t work anymore.
If there’s no balance, then either you have to go back into your codependent traits or the narcissist has to change. Since a narcissistic personality disorder doesn’t like the change, these relationships usually fall apart.
Kamala Chambers I’m pretty certain that I used to be in a relationship with a narcissistic personality disorder. Does that automatically make me codependent, or was I codependent then?
Ross Rosenberg No, not exactly. What has made you codependent is if you have a relationship with a narcissistic personality disorder and you didn’t try to stand up for yourself.
You didn’t try to set boundaries, and you just gave up, or you kept believing that they’ll get better. However, the fact that you were in a relationship. And you got out of it shows that there’s some level of mental health, perhaps great mental health.
The point is just the very fact that you’re out of it tells me that you wanted more from it. If you read my book in the chapter of The Continue of Self.
You might have been more on the codependent side but realized you needed to be treated better. Of course, relationships don’t last when you demand that and you have a partner who has narcissistic behavior.
Getting Out Of Codependency And Narcissism
Luis Congdon One of the biggest questions that I’ve been asked by people in different conversations that I’ve had is. How do you get out of one of these relationships? They tend to be very addictive.
One of the key signs of them is person feels like this is the magical person, this is the answer, and all. If they can’t survive in this relationship, they’re life is over. You have this dynamic where both people just feel stuck to each other like drug addicts.
Other people watching it have such a hard time, and I’ve been asked how I help someone get out of this relationship.
Luis Congdon One of the things I do to find interviews and people to come on the show is I search through the internet. YouTube has become a really fantastic medium for me to discover nuggets, and you’ve been one of those people.
A quick search on codependency on YouTube pretty much brings you. You pretty much dominate that fear of codependency and narcissism, which is fantastic. You have such a great content.
There are videos on YouTube that are well over an hour long on trainings.
If someone wanted to really try to understand this, they would have to go to school for a long time, but if they wanted to just kind of get an overall view of it and get some insight and start asking some questions, they could go to YouTube and look you up.
Why do you think your YouTube channel is so high in views and people are watching?
Related Reading: How To Spot Gaslighting
The Fear Of Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg First of all, I should tell your listeners that my YouTube channel is a little less than 2 years old. I have almost 1.2 million views and 10,000 subscribers. I’ve had a lot of people in different media outlets contact me and say, “What did you do?”
Because I don’t have great photography, great this, or great that. I told them, “Content is people and out in the world who are looking for answers can recognize someone who has something to offer.”
And yes, I’m in the business. I have a counseling center. I have a training company. I’m an author. And yes, it would be nice to have some to retire. Don’t get me wrong.
However, more than that, I want to leave a legacy behind. I want to give people an opportunity to grow and change. And this is the young Ross Rosenberg of 1979, who said when he grows up he wants to be a therapist. And he wants to change the world.
That was the idealism that stayed with me. I really want to make a difference. And so, YouTube serves a dual purpose.
- I get to reach an international audience and really help people out.
- It’s really good for business. It really gets my name out.
As long as I put out quality, original content and my own ideas. Then people want to see it, and I’ve never been happier in my life.
This is almost like a dream come true because I’m just talking about what I know and I believe. I’m not out there getting pictures, movies, or videos of someone eating a pepper and then acting like a fool.
Codependency And Narcissism Are Not Common
Luis Congdon Do you think codependency and narcissism are more common nowadays? My theory on it is either you’re kind of the guy who’s doing it, really going out there. And sharing the subject, and maybe it’s just more common or more widely acknowledged now.
Ross Rosenberg First of all, it’s not more common. One of the things that I have great pride in is my book introduces the subject in a way that everyone gets. The only person that doesn’t get it and he gets pissed off are the narcissists.
What I’ve done is I’ve explained it in a way that really clicks. I learned this because until I wrote my book, I had a secret that I didn’t want anyone to know. I had deep shame about the fact that I’ve been divorced twice, and been married three times because I felt so inadequate.
I carried so much shame and loneliness about me as a therapist, making that mistake so many times that I didn’t tell anyone. Everyone knew, my friends, except my family, that I was divorced once.
However, when I wrote my book. I wanted my reader to know that this repeated pattern happens to everyone. You shouldn’t be ashamed of it. You should just learn about it so you can change it.
Codependents tend to resonate with that. It gives them hope because a lot of co-dependents like me, just feel like they’re bad people.
They feel they are lonely people or they’re just flawed. And when someone like me gives an explanation, the light bulb goes off, and they feel inspired. The greatest feeling that I have is when I get thousands of letters from people saying that my content changed their lives. There’s no money that can make me feel that good.
Recovering From Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg So I’m speaking universal truth in a way that people would understand. That I learned from my own therapy and my own journey of recovery.
Kamala Chambers How powerful. Makes me think about the journey that I’ve been on with dating narcissists and how I felt so messed up after that relationship. I just felt so twisted and manipulated.
I’m wondering what you would recommend as a recovery process for people. People who’ve been in a relationship with a person with narcissistic behavior. And don’t really know which way is up and down after that experience because it can be so manipulating.
Rebuilding the sense of self esteem in the codependent person
Ross Rosenberg It’s interesting. When I start to write another book, I’m thinking of new things to say and great ways to say it. And one day, I came up with a sentence that explained my whole idea for the second book. Now, of course, I need 225 more pages. But the essence of codependent recovery is self-love.
Ross Rosenberg To answer your question, what advice do I have for a codependent that is stuck in this relationship? Or coming out of it and being broken or beaten up because of it is to understand that if the core of your codependency is you somewhere along the line.
Most because of your childhood, you never really learn to love and value yourself. You never really were taught by the way your parents raised you to believe you’re worthy to be respected, loved, and cared. And because of that early childhood experience or trauma, you keep accepting that because your self-esteem is so embattled and beaten down.
The Antidote For Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg What I say to this codependent who are in relationships. Or abandoned relationships, who are on the verge of repeating the pattern again, understand that you have to heal those wounds inside of you that cause you to feel not worthy of being loved, respected, and cared for.
This is the core of codependent recovery. Resolve those wounds that perpetuate your automatic, if not magnetic or reflexive, reaction to narcissistic behaviors and accept their harm.
Kamala Chambers Beautiful, and I love how it boils down to that self-love piece. I’m curious about if two codependents tend to attract to partners who are also codependent, what kind of relationship that create?
Ross Rosenberg It’s funny you said that because I just finished this session with one of my codependent clients. I told her this joke that I’ll tell you. I got this joke from one of my trainings. I say we’re going to break for lunch now. Imagine three of you guys were codependent, were going to ask, “Where do you want to go out for lunch?”
How long do you think that conversation going to last? That’s a 15-minute discussion. “I don’t care. Where do you want to go?” “Well, where do you want to go? I don’t care.”And then, all of a sudden, someone who doesn’t have anyone to go out to lunch with because he’s a narcissistic son of a gun comes up.
And say, “Hey, where are you guys going out to lunch?” Takes over the conversation, and they say, “They don’t care,” and he picks, “Well, let’s go for Indian food,” and let’s say these three codependents don’t like Indian food. But they’ll say “Sure,” and they go out to lunch, and next thing you know, they’re all unhappy but not saying anything.
Related Reading: Trauma Bonding
Codependency And Narcissism In Relationships
Ross Rosenberg Two codependents in a relationship don’t work. According to human magnet syndrome, you need opposites to attract. I chose the name Human Magnet Syndrome because we think of magnets.
The North Pole is where the negative magnetic pole is always attracted to the South Pole or this positive magnetic pole. You can always see that opposite magnets attract each other, and similar poles repel each other.
If you’ve ever known someone who’s going on a date, let’s say both of them are equally gorgeous and attractive, but they said there’s no chemistry. That experience of no chemistry is often the result of Human Magnet Syndrome.
Codependent and narcissistic partner attraction
That the two codependents are too much alike and they don’t feel like there’s any of kind connection. But if you put a codependent on a date with narcissistic personality disorder, there’s magnetism and charm.
All of a sudden, narcissistic tendencies feels charming, exciting, and bold to the codependent. That narcissist feels that the codependent is sweet, caring, and patient. The whole time the narcissist talks during that date while the codependent listens.
The point is if two codependents meet, there’s no chemistry because they don’t know what to do. They like to help and listen. Or if two narcissists meet, they tend to not like each other because they keep interrupting each other.
The Human Magnet Syndrome says relationships unconsciously move towards an opposite attraction. It doesn’t quite work out well with two codependents. Have any of you guys ever been on a date with someone who you thought on paper was perfect, but she didn’t feel any chemistry?
Luis Congdon Oh yeah.
Deeper Insight Into Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg That means whoever you are on the continuum, they were probably more similar to you than the opposite, and that’s unconscious. It’s like your mind, part of your psyche, knows that it just doesn’t feel right.
Luis CongdonYeah. I love myself, but I definitely don’t want to be on a date with myself. The contrast is nice. I know you’ve done some work with Dr. Harville Hendrix, too, right?
Ross Rosenberg Yes. I was really fortunate to have him endorse my book. Six months ago, there was a panel discussion I was invited to with him, 3 other relationship experts, and his wife. We got to do a series of videotaped panel discussions.
He is brilliant. He is a master of relationship theory. Probably he is one of the most influential people in my life in the understanding of the theories that culminated in writing my book.
Kamala Chambers Yeah. We had the pleasure of meeting him this summer. He’s been on the podcast, and I think your work with his work is a really full-spectrum experience for navigating relationships.
Ross Rosenberg Well, thank you. That’s quite a compliment. I appreciate that.
Kamala Chambers I’m wondering, since we live in this day and age of these quizzes online, getting a diagnosis, and figuring it out. Do you have any resources for figuring out if you’re dating someone with narcissistic behaviors, if you have a narcissistic partner, if you’re a narcissistic person, or if you’re a codependent person?
Ross Rosenberg First of all I have to tell you my opinion. I think online codependent traits and narcissistic traits quizzes are very misleading, and I think the whole world on the internet is ADD.
Related Reading: How To Identify a Narcissistic Relationship Pattern
Codependency And Narcissism Is Complicated
There’s no real quick way to understand something complicated, but that’s why I created my YouTube channel. Skip the quizzes; they don’t tell you anything reliable about codependency and narcissism. Either buy my book, and if $18 is too much for you, you can go online and go to YouTube and look at my videos. But if you really want to get a bird’s eye view into my newest work, get human magnet syndrome.
With the help of my content, I promise you you’re going to walk away with an understanding of whether you’re codependent or not. But I do have a disclaimer. The videos are just excerpts of all my work. The book itself is a condensed version of everything put together, so it’s out there. I don’t have any quick 15-step processes.
Trainings On Codependency And Narcissism
Luis Congdon Ross, I also know that you do a lot of trainings around codependency and narcissism. I want people to go on that website if they’re interested in getting some training.
Trainings around mediations, deeper insight into codependency, and narcissism. Anytime I get a professional on the show. There are a lot of examples and a lot of work telling us what unhealthy relationships look like and how to identify them. But how do we know for a healthy relationship?
Ross Rosenberg I explained this in the human magnet syndrome along with codependency and narcissism. Healthy relationships are mutual and reciprocal, even with the problems you experience. Because I think a normal relationship has problems. However, a healthy relationship resolves them, and you learn from them.
It’s when both people can demonstrate and show their love, care, and respect for the other one in a way that the other one feels it. Even with mistakes or some bad behavior, the person who tries to build up their lover tries to become better because of the relationship.
A healthy relationship is to be able to solve problems, to learn from them, and to always feel loved, respected, and cared for.
Identifying Unhealthy Relationships And Codependency And Narcissism
Luis CongdonThat’s wonderful. Again, this isn’t like a simple answer because it’s not that we’re going to be able to give a 30-second answer of this is what love is like. Love is one of the most commonly written about subjects.
Because, as humans, we need it, and we thrive on it. It’s our gasoline. It’s our sunshine. I really strongly believe in people learning how to identify unhealthy relationships and routines that they have. We all have our certain grooves in a disk. We all have those, and once we identify them, it’s just so much easier to change.
It’s been really great to have you on the show today. Kamala and I have really enjoyed talking to you about codependency and narcissism.
Kamala Chambers Absolutely, and you really helped put a lot of things in the light about my past relationships. And also to look at how I’m in a healthy relationship now.I love how you were able to just distill a lot of it down to recovering from being with someone with narcissistic behaviors and really getting to that essence of building self esteem again. That’s some really incredible points today regarding codependency and narcissism.
Ross Rosenberg Kamala and Luis, you guys were great, great interviewees. Love your show, and I appreciate the invitation.
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